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[Music]

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hi everybody nice to see you all I have

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a little methodology talk about

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experience a few years ago I presented

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my research design for the study that

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ended up as science and spirit exploring

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the limits of consciousness by Penelope

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Emmons and me let's take one theme from

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that book the importance of subjective

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experience one in motivating researchers

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and two as data I'm a sociologist of

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science and knowledge and I like to

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blend intuition and science I'm big on

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multiple methodologies and perspectives

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I think that objectivity is a nice idea

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but in reality when research is done by

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human beings and funded by human

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institutions then it's a myth in fact

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objectivity is part of the ideology of

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normal science I think science ought to

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be a never ending open-ended unbounded

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search like the search for the perfect

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dress

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now of course my ideal is at odds with

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basic psychological and social processes

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prejudice social control conformity

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power relations and so on sadly studying

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the so-called paranormal is labeled

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deviant by these processes and I think

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actually that a concept like psy ought

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to be put up on a pedestal alongside

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dark energy and dark matter as

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representations placeholders for what we

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don't understand about the universe

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okay I don't think sighs any squirrel

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yer than dark energy and dark matter so

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and of course persistent anomalies

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should be highly valued as clues to what

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is missing in our paradigm but of course

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this deviant labeling makes it difficult

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for those of us in sse who want to study

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consciousness or exploring the

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extraordinary another group that I

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belong to and one of the reasons for the

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deviant labeling is the strong emphasis

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on materialism in Western science so how

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do people actually get motivated to do

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this research given all the

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disincentives a very strong reason is

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their own subjective experience it

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Elizabeth Maher is a great example she

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talks about how her daughter's harp was

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stolen and then she engaged the help of

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a dowser and when they found it she was

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just astounded it changed her worldview

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so completely that she ended up looking

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into SCI research Jim McLennan the

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sociologist did a survey of elite

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scientists in which he found that there

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was a strong correlation between their

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having had a zinger ESP experience of

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their own and thinking that ESP had been

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established scientifically there was no

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correlation between them actually

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knowing the SCI literature and thinking

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that ESP was established scientifically

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so experience triumphs I found the same

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thing in my study of UFO researchers

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that the most important reason that they

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got involved in the research was

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thinking they had had a UFO experience

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themselves Russell Targ talks about how

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it was very important to the funding for

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the remote viewing project that as

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Stanford because of the influence of

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Verner von Braun talking about his

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experiences with his psychic grandmother

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now I had my own PK experiences when I

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was in college

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and those were a big motivator to me got

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me interested and my first real study of

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the paranormal was Chinese ghosts in the

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early 1980s which will pass over for now

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by the early and mid-1990s I my mother

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died I had experiences with spirit

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mediums in the spiritualist Church

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I met Penelope as a spirit medium and

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those are the experienced general things

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that got me interested in doing the

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research with Penelope on guided by

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spirit Steven Browdy tells us that when

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he saw a demonstration of table tipping

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he just knew some time in his career

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he's gonna have to investigate these

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things you need to get immortal remains

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if you haven't read that book and I've

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also had table tipping experiences and

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that really made me wonder what's real

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and what's fraudulent or maybe both

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Russell Targ

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says that in his salad days he was a

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trick magician and he was astonished to

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find spontaneous ESP things going on in

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his act and that really got him going

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now not everybody has had that kind of

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motivation so for example Russell I mean

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Dean Radin says that he got interested

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in mysterious things by reading about

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mysterious things but some of you will

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recall a few years ago at SSC he told us

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about how he had precognitive dreams as

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an adult and one night he dreamt he was

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going to be in a car accident he went he

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took a circuitous route to work the next

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day to avoid that but he got rear-ended

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anyway now is it a synchronicity that we

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just heard about a precognitive dream

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about a car accident in the last

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presentation I didn't see that coming

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till I just heard the last presentation

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quick recap subjective experience is a

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powerful motivator for researchers but

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can we use these subjective experiences

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as data well sometimes we don't have

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much choice but to use subjective

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experiences if we want to know something

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about the phenomena

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in the 1920s behavioral psychologists

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like Watson could actually say there can

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be no such thing as consciousness which

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is an odd thing considering he was

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probably conscious when he said that and

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he knew that he was conscious when he

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said that but in terms of Erving

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Goffman's frame analysis and sociology

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it makes sense because if you're looking

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in the frame of objective external

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evidence at a laboratory consciousness

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might as well not exist a couple decades

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later well in the last say in the last

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couple of decades consciousness is back

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on the psychological table because of

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hopes that in neuroscience we'll take

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pretty pictures of your consciousness

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but as Chalmers has said and still true

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that consciousness is the hard problem

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he said standard neuroscience has

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nothing to say about it and we have

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people like Susan Blackmore telling us

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the consciousness and the self are

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stories we tell ourselves about who we

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are and what we're doing actually I buy

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that completely as a sociologist we are

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always talking about the social

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construction of the self that doesn't

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mean it's not real so we've got

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objective studies and subjective

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objective viewing a brain scan of some

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kind in the laboratory subjective

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looking at our own internal states this

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includes what are called qualia

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qualitative experiences like the redness

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of a rose ironically Raymond moody said

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in the last laughs I'm not sure what

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happened to Raymond moody but he said

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that all the stuff he collected in life

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after life was just anecdotal it's not

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scientific evidence of life after death

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these and the experiences they don't

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represent scientific knowledge

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Fontana also talked about how

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psychologists are not really happy with

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inter experience as data but we

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sociologists do this all the time this

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is what we do when we do ethnographic

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interviews we collect people's

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subjective experiences and we don't call

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it anecdotal evidence now that doesn't

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mean that we accept literally true

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we you know as absolute ontological

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truth every single thing that somebody

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tells us but if we have a lot of

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agreement among a lot of experiencers

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this should be paid attention to for

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example back to my Chinese ghosts only

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two out of 176 first hand ghost

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experiences that I collected contained

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physical effects whereas Chinese culture

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is loaded with them about ghosts they're

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supposed to beat you up kill you seduce

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you beat you a mahjong which is the

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worst one and but and the the Chinese

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folklore and stories in the literature

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are full of those but not the first-hand

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experiences so this study supported

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David Hufford and experiential source

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theory that these experiences are

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basically very similar all around the

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world and they're not just from the

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culture that would be culture cultural

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source theory and even if we don't learn

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anything ontologically from these

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experiences we know that they're

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important psychologically and socially

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because for example so if we see that

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most people after an NDE have a

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significant life change that's important

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to them and that's something we should

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study and of course there's a lot more

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interest after evan alexander the

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neurosurgeon has talked about his own

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and ee now we have basically in spirit

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mediumship we have two kinds of just to

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be simplistic we have laboratory studies

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Gary Schwartz talking about testing

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mediums in a laboratory setting and the

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afterlife experience experiments and the

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Penelope and I am guided by spirit

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actually asking mediums what they think

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is going on what a concept asked mediums

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and you know do can they tell the do

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they think they can tell the difference

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between a psychic reading and something

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from the spirit world I like to see

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these combines subjective and objective

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so that both Waggoner and laverra's have

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talked about lucid dreamers

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communicating to neuroscientists in the

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laboratory

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by their eye movements because they know

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they're dreaming so you combine the

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subjective experience of the LD year and

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the LD R and and the neuroscientist

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Julie by shal at the wind bridge

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Institute does this in part of the

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research they're involved in so that if

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you just emphasize the second program

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here operation research they combine

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phenomenological information about you

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know what the mediums are experiencing

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while they're doing a reading or

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afterwards physiological doing the

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various kinds of brain scans and so on

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and psychological data and so that's a

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great example of bringing together the

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subjective and the objective

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methodologies John and done were not

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just counting beans in the pair lab they

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were also collecting you know just

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looking for deviance from random they

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were also looking at subjective factors

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intention and emotion attitude and so on

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that books on the table out there now

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there's another issue what about the

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experience the researchers actually

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having the experiences themselves should

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they do participatory science an

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anthropology we call this going native

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so for example Frank Cushing in the

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1880s actually became a member of the

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Zuni war council and somebody said he

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was supposed to study the Zuni not

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become one and they could say the same

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about me at Inspiration stump in

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Lilydale New York giving messages he was

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supposed to study spirit mediums not

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become one but I think that

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participatory science helped me

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understand mediumship a lot better now I

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think that there's an experience

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movement in anthropology and sociology

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involving first of all taking informants

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experiences very seriously but also

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sometimes having the experiences

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yourself as a researcher I got more into

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this in 2008 when I interviewed

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sociologists at the anomalous

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experiences Research Unit at the

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University of York in England and

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started to be involved in exploring the

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extraordinary

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came out of that group another UK

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influences the Journal / anthropology

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edited by Jack hunter and some of the

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people involved in ete include and the

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ready for a pair anthropology I should

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say are the famous anthropologist Edie

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Turner talking about her experiences

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with healing in the field in the for

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example in her book the hands feel it

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where she saw a blob coming out of

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somebody's back during a healing session

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Esalen Institute is a great example of

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combining experiences with theory and

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here's a bunch of us this is a low

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resolution photograph to protect our

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identities but Stan krypter is in this

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picture and I I'm the goofy guy in the

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green t-shirt in the upper middle and

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Stan's a couple people to my left Jack

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hunter is over my left shoulder

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and David Hufford is over my right

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shoulder Michael Murphy who was one of

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the founders of the Esalen Institute is

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in the upper left and Edie Turner is on

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the middle left sitting down so that's

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the kind of people getting together

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talking about pair anthropology and

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survival issues so I'm arguing for a

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combination of objective methods and

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subjective bringing together expanding

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very good thank you do we have some

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philosophically from my perixx periences

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have always felt that subjective

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experiences are objective data in the

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sense that if somebody has had an

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experience it is a fact that they had

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that experience my question however is

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more methodological if you will how can

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we verify or check that with one

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individual you can't necessarily in the

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usual perspective of objective data and

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that's why I say it's important to have

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to look at patterns in the data you

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could figure any one person could be

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easily lying to you when you do an

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ethnographic interview we know about

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social desirability response so you

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might not be getting their real internal

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state it's very difficult to check that

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now there are some tricky ways that

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people have devised to figure out what

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the social desirability response is what

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you I won't go into but it's definitely

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a problem that's why I would never rely

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on one person's statement I'm delighted

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that you gave this talk I'm a

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neuroscientist and I explore altered

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states of consciousness using EEG

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brainwave mapping and I've recently

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gotten into drug induced altered states

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and I record the objective data and then

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I record the person's subjective

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experience the recall and it's very very

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valuable good it's part of it as part of

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the data set and then I also experience

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it myself because you know you don't

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know what you're talking about unless

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you try it and I when you get into that

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area of research you have to have the

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experience to really understand what

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what you did the Jekyll & Hyde thing

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so I endorse participating in these

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experiences as much as you can to really

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you know know what you are talking about

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that's great I think there's a broad

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cultural movement in science to accept

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this and to do this you even see it in

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mainstream anthropology and sociology of

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people doing less bracketing of the

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experiences people have but it but the

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taboo against it because of objectivity

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[Applause]